[ranallo10]

I cannot disagree with the Footballguys points...but I think you should define WHY you are putting the points to Meachem.

If it is because he stripped the ball and returned it for a TD, does that mean ALL players who score a TD (regardless of defensive/offensive designation, or situation) receive points for said TD? If it is because of the "change of possession" does that mean Kick Returners become the "offense" as soon as they catch a ball, and thus are eligible for scoring points?

Clearly there is some gray areas with the way scoring does/should work, so I'm looking for a definition.

[schingeldi]

A kick returner isn't an offensive player when he gains possession. This is special team. The third part of a football team.

[Dan_the_Man]

good point from Chris, if we award Mechem with the TD, we have to award every kick- or punt-return to the individual player.
Leaving the question if the kick- or punt-returns should also be awarded to the according DST...

Either way we need to clarify this in our rules.

IMO the Saints offense became the defense when the ball was intercepted, therefore I would award the NO DST with the TD and not Meachem.

If we award Meachem with the TD, it would be consequent to award all return TDs to the individual player. If we do so, the question remains if the DST also should be awarded and how the return yards should be handled.

To avoid those gray areas I would suggest that all return TDs and yards should be awarded to the DST, period.
That is maybe somewhat aggravating for the owner of the return guy, but would make the decisions on those topics easier.

But that is only my opinion, we should come up with a poll to clarify this...

[maximus13]

We are playing with Team Def and Team Special Teams. When one of this units is on the field no individual player can be awarded with points. This would be a major change to the rules.

The discussion "Robert Meachem Fumble Return TD" is only for the cases when the offense of a team is on the field (because we use Individual Offense Player) and a turnover from the offense is recovered again by the offense.

[skee]

I've thought a lot about this situation and the footballguys argumentation is very logic to me and I agree with maximus13:

NO throw a interception -> this is a turnover and NO became defense. Meachem grab the ball -> this is the second turnover and NO became offense again. You see - no matter if you consider turnovers or not, it allways stay an offensive TD! These are the official NFL rules, so if we want to follow the NFL rules, every turnower switches the team from defense to offense and offense to defense. This would automatically kill any defensive touchdowns, because the defensive team become offensive team at any kind of turnover.

In my opinion we must see two different teams in our league: offense and defense. Defense are all players on field when the opponent have ball posession, no matter wich player is on field. E.g. a WR plays a drive in the defensive team and make a Interception-TD - it counts for defense and not for the individual WR. Any individual defensive performance would be awarded when we play with IDPs, but this is a NON IDP league. It was my idea during creation of this league, to do not play with IDPs.

On the other hand an offensive team consists all players on field when their team has ball posession. We do not consider turnovers because of my explanations above.

And last but not least: special teams belonging to the defense are only defensive special teams: kick and punt return teams, not fieldgoal or punt teams - these are offensive special teams and their performances count individual.

[Dan_the_Man]

Martin, how would you handle interception return TDs then?
Your argumentation says with the turnover the defense becomes an offense, that would imply that an interception return TD is an offensive TD.
Makes no sence at all...

IMO we should award all return TDs to the according DST, than there are no gray areas and there would be no room for speculations.
Clear cut, if it is a return TD it goes to the DST, no disussion, period.
It would be the easiest way to handle it.

EDIT:
I read your post a second time and recognized that you already stated that it makes no sence that the defense becomes automatically the offense.
Sorry!
Nevertheless I am still confident, that the solution I suggested is the easiest to handle this problem.

[skee]

No, I have not - my argumentation is: we do not consider turnovers, please read my post again!
I said: if we want consider turnovers, it will kill any defensive touchdowns - this is not what we want to do and even when we consider turnovers, the Meachem-TD would still be a offensive TD because of two turnovers during one play on field.

My opinion is: turnovers do not change the teams as in the NFL rules and all defensive performances count for the whole defense team, all offensive performances count for the individual players.

[skee]

IMO we should award all return TDs to the according DST, than there are no gray areas and there would be no room for speculations.
Clear cut, if it is a return TD it goes to the DST, no disussion, period.
It would be the easiest way to handle it.

This is exactly what I say: all defensive special teams are defense and a return TD is a defensive TD. All offensive performances go to the individual offensive players.

[ranallo10]

Okay, but we have problems with this rule. What happens to the yards gained? For Meachems TD it was considered a Fumble Recovery TD, not a rushing TD. However, if he recovered an OFFENSIVE fumble and returned it for a TD, I believe he would be credited offensive yards gained as well (depending on if it was a rushing or passing play).

So, if Meachem is given 6 points for a TD, does he get points accrued for rushing or receiving?

Finally, what if an offensive player like Meachems recovers a fumble and LOSES yards? If a QB is sacked, loses the ball, and recovers it, I believe it's scored as negative rushing yards for that player (please correct me if I'm wrong)...so do we follow suit and subtract yardage?

The whole dynamic designation of offense/defense is goofy. Meachem lined up as an offensive player, forced a fumble, and then ran in for a TD. He deserves yards gained for his feat, a forced fumble, 6 points for the TD, and the NO D/ST deserves nothing.

I can understand kick returns counting solely towards D/ST, that makes sense the way it's scored currently despite the "offensive" players that could be involved.